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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 14:23:34 GMT -5
What do you guys think of the Chris Sale trade? Who do y'all think came out on top? I like the trade for both parties, but I think the Red Sox losing Moncada is going to be something they regret for many years.
With Sale being traded, I think the White Sox would be foolish not too go for a full rebuild and start selling off their valuable assets (Frazier, Quintana, Abreu, etc.). They could completely replenish their farm by trading these guys... it'd help speed up their rebuild a ton. As an Astros fan, I hope Houston targets Quintana now that Sale is gone (and White Sox are clearly looking to rebuild some). While Sale is the better pitcher, I think Quintana is much closer to Sale than people think... they'd probably be able to get him for a lot lower price.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 16:30:50 GMT -5
Pretty much agree with you, good trade for both sides but Moncada and Kopech will sound a whole lot better in years to come.
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Post by GiantsGM (Adam) on Dec 6, 2016 17:28:58 GMT -5
Red Sox fans won't be able to hear you say that if they win the championship this year!
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Post by CardsGM (Mat) on Dec 6, 2016 17:50:31 GMT -5
Red Sox fans won't be able to hear you say that if they win the championship this year! In baseball, particularly when it comes to a pitcher with more than 1100 inning on his arm, there are no guarantees. Here's what I know: 1. He is a great "ace" pitcher 2. He is a LHP 3. The Jays just added Pearce who has outstanding stats against him and now need Fowler more than ever because of his dominance of LHP and performance at Fenway 4. Sale had an ERA of over 7.33 in his last 3 starts and whispers of injury started swirling. Ask yourself, why would the White Sox be in a rush to trade him? 5. Yoan Moncada is the best up-and-coming talent in MLB and once he gets here he'll play EVERY DAY, not once every 5 starts. Combine that with an outstanding makeup and minimal cost (Red Sox pick up the $30 million fee he was owed) and to me, they get the best OVERALL FUTURE PIECE in the deal 6. All other pieces obtained by Chicago are gravy, and when Sale slows down or injures himself, this will look like a ridiculous deal for Chicago. In essence, I compare this deal to what the Expos once gave up for Bartolo Colon (although on grander scale of course). They sent Grady Sizemore, Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee, and Lee Stevens. 7. Meanwhile, his fellow Ace lefty - David Price - had horrible last 3 starts as well (4.91 ERA and 1.527 Whip) and has over 1600 innings on that arm. 8. Combine the two likely to fall off aces over the next 2-3 years and the Red Sox will be left with a FA certainty in Sale and will still be paying Price $32,000,000 per season!!! 9. They could have gotten a younger, cheaper, and controllable for longer period arm (Archer) from the Rays for less. 10. The Yankees and Jays will dominate the AL East for years now that they've sold out their future. If I've learned one thing in baseball, if you're going to bank on the long-term, bank on the bats. From Johan Santana to countless others, it's almost a certainty that pitchers will fall off to injury within a short time frame. As a Jays fan, I love this deal because for the long term (putting 2017 1st half aside) it'll prove to be the downfall of the RedSox. My 2 cents. |
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Post by GiantsGM (Adam) on Dec 6, 2016 18:15:20 GMT -5
I respect those opinions, but even in my young-ish life of watching baseball, I've seen far too many 'can't miss talents' to count that never even made the big leagues. not saying anything in particular about moncada, but he MAY become an excellent player. Sale already is an elite elite pitcher. his production is the kind of production one can only hope moncada attains.
Sale isn't just any pitcher. he's the best pitcher in the entire American League over the last five years. and this is still only his year-28 season. so while he does have over 1000 innings on his arm, he's not been an injury prone player, so I think when you have a chance to get a top 3 pitcher in the American League (if not the best), and he's controlled for 3 years, you take it. this isn't a two month rental type trade.
Archer Ive heard is actually just as expensive as Sale (no idea if that's true or not). for the same price, to me, there's really no comparison who you'd rather have on your team, Sale or Archer. Archer is good, but Sale is elite to me. that 4.00 Era for Archer isn't THAT hard to imagine for me. a year long 4 Era for Sale isnt really possible I don't think. well it's possible, obviously. but I'd bet a lot against that happening
I don't think there's any risk of Sale being injured; I don't think there's any chance the red Sox make this deal if there's a shred of a chance he's coming over from Chicago with an existing injury.
Maybe the Yankees and others dominate the AL East in the future, but for the next couple of years there is no doubt to me who the best team in that division is (boston) and possibly in the entire AL. hitting may get you to the postseason, but pitching certainly is what wins it.
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Post by RaysGM (Paul) on Dec 6, 2016 21:17:46 GMT -5
ARCHER SALE DIFFERENCE
2017 Contract details by year 29 $4,750,000 $166,666 $4,916,666 2017 $12,000,000 $7,083,334
2018 Contract details by year 30 $6,250,000 $166,666 $6,416,666 2018 Option $12,500,000 $6,083,334
2019 Contract details by year 31 $7,500,000 $166,668 $7,666,668 2019 Option $13,500,000 $5,833,332
2020 Contract details by year 32 $8,250,000 - $8,250,000
2021 Contract details by year 33 $8,250,000 - $8,250,000
Contract Notes:
2020 Option includes a $1.75 million buyout
Archer is definitely a lot cheaper than Sale and has options for 2019 & 2010, but that doesn't seem to matter to the Red Sox.
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Post by GiantsGM (Adam) on Dec 7, 2016 12:22:03 GMT -5
I agree he's much cheaper, but I don't think he's anywhere near the same caliber of pitcher, considering he's actually older than Sale..idk, maybe this year I'm proven to be wrong about it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 12:29:26 GMT -5
Archer is definitely cheaper, but it's not like Sale's price is prohibitive to any team. ANY team in the majors would pay Sale $12 - $14 million to pitch for them... that's so cheap for the quality of pitcher he is. I would MUCH rather pay Sale $13 mil/year than have Archer for just $8 mil/year (and it's not close IMO)
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Post by RaysGM (Paul) on Dec 7, 2016 12:59:37 GMT -5
I wasn't saying that Archer is a better option because he's cheaper - I agree that Sale is a better pitcher. I just wanted to put the numbers out there in response to Adam saying he heard that Archer was just as expensive as Sale, and I was curious to see if that was true. The only team who would not pay the $12-$14M for Sale IS the Rays, since they're so money conscious.
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Post by DodgersGM (Stephen) on Dec 7, 2016 14:10:35 GMT -5
Sale - his production combined with his contract- might be the best pitcher on baseball. I don't think the White Sox got enough. Moving past this season- with the crushing 92% tax, the value of his contract will only go up. Yankees fan here- but give the devil his due- great move by the Red Sox.
I never understood the Espinosa trade last season- but I really like this trade if I am a Red Sox fan.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 14:37:03 GMT -5
I wasn't saying that Archer is a better option because he's cheaper - I agree that Sale is a better pitcher. I just wanted to put the numbers out there in response to Adam saying he heard that Archer was just as expensive as Sale, and I was curious to see if that was true. The only team who would not pay the $12-$14M for Sale IS the Rays, since they're so money conscious. I believe Adam was stating that Archer was just as expensive as Sale in terms of what it would take to acquire them, not their salaries. I'm not Adam though so I could be wrong! For the record, I do really like Archer... if the Astros can get him or Quintana without giving up Bregman, I think they should do it. |
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Post by RaysGM (Paul) on Dec 7, 2016 15:24:53 GMT -5
Well, now that the Rays signed the catcher from WAS (Ramos?), they are looking for a power OF and bullpen help - things that I'm not sure HOU has a surplus of. I like Archer also, and I think this year he will want to prove that 2016 was just a bad year and he's gonna have a chip on his shoulder.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 15:39:44 GMT -5
I was under the impression that the Rays wanted a haul of prospects for Archer, but again, I could totally be wrong. If they do want prospects, the Astros could totally meet the asking price - they've got a lot of great prospects.
Speaking of Ramos, I love that singing for the Rays
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Post by RaysGM (Paul) on Dec 7, 2016 16:45:28 GMT -5
I was under the impression that the Rays wanted a haul of prospects for Archer, but again, I could totally be wrong. If they do want prospects, the Astros could totally meet the asking price - they've got a lot of great prospects.
Speaking of Ramos, I love that singing for the Rays
The Rays desperately needed an upgrade at the catcher position, so the Ramos signing is good, even though he will miss some time in the beginning of the - and as long as his knees hold out. In regards to prospects, yes the Rays are always looking for prospects, but they also see a need for an OF and bullpen help, and I think they want to trade a starter (or two) to fill those holes as well as prospects. The fans know we're a small market team, but they are getting tired of always getting prospects and not some major league players.
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Post by GiantsGM (Adam) on Dec 8, 2016 12:55:11 GMT -5
yeah, I just meant that in terms of trade cost, the rays were asking for a similar package of players that the CWS received for Sale. in terms of contract cost, yeah Sale is definitely more expensive. but I think once you factor in production, I like Sales overall cost-to-production ratio more than Archer.
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